A wonderfully written, crisply evocative analogy. We have indeed lost the ancient wisdoms which accorded a mystical respect towards Life. I continually recall C.S.Lewis's 'That Hideous Strength' when observing the headlong dive towards 'science's supremacy'. 'Evidence' must be the most abused word in common language use. You old geezers know its true meaning; subverted widely, it results in the hysterical and triumphant misuse of the visual or auditory, piecemeal fragments reminiscent of the McCarthyist clamour for 'information'.
I Couldn't agree more! However - perhaps, because we don't treat the living (especially the old) with respect, we now also don't treat the dead with respect any longer ...
Oh Tom, how evocative. Are there so few of us left who recognise the indecency of this behaviour? Rhetorical question - have the editorial board no integrity - of course not. I avoid MSM like the plague. I take great comfort from reading the comments on TTE as it helps to know there are still some of us out there who know why this is so wrong.
Removing the camera, should they find it, I understand: it may resolve a mystery and makes a great story. But his foot? For the Love of God. Build a cairn, as they did with Mallory and leave a brave man in peace.
Tom, you are quite right, no consideration for the dignity of the deceased person's remains is indicative of self-centred selfish lack of respect for dignity for others.
Similar to the appalling attitude that those who used Henrietta Lack's cells for research without her consent had, something that nowadays we think of as repugnant and illegal as well as immoral.
Similar feelings for me are also evoked around for example the Titanic.
That said, isn't it wonderful that we now live in a liberal society that cares so much for itself. Just look at the good intentions behind banning mis/disinformation, lockdowns, compulsory vaccinations, school closures etc. and no doubt soon a legalised early if you want (or maybe even should have) death.
You took the words out of my mouth. Because we have no respect for the dead, we have no regard for life. I fear this legislation will be abused, as it already is in countries where it is used (Canada and Australia).
Funny that Toffeepud - two other countries with very strong connections to the WEF Young Leaders initiative. A kill-bill here, a kill-bill there….sorry please don’t misread this as Kill Bill…..nicely tidies up all those illegal murderous DNACPR’s washing around during Covid…..
By all accounts, Everest is a feculent and, in some weather, fetid place. A giant open latrine to rival open defecation in suburban India, combined with countless bodies in various states and poses. Perhaps some of these grave robbers could have more usefully carried a bag of poop down instead of ski goggles.
I remember watching a video on YouTube about Mallory’s discovery, which was mostly footage of the discovery. I didn’t know who he was going into it (you don’t want me on your team at a pub quiz) but I remember being appalled that the people who discovered his remains.
They seemed to have main character syndrome. There was no doubt Mallory was up there so the delight and excitement of in the video could only have been for their own fame.
My only conflicting feeling is what the climbers would have wanted. If indeed they died after reaching the summit, would they have wanted the world to know, after such a long time, if that meant disturbing their resting place?
Usually when someone dies, up there, the family want the body. After all, many have died trying to retrieve bodies. But surely that expires at some point, especially after every living relative has died. I doubt they wanted either of them recovered one limb at a time. Finding a sock with a name woven into it is surely enough evidence without bringing the entire foot back for a DNA test.
Then what happens with it? An auction at Christie’s followed by a tawdry jar of formaldehyde in a museum or a tech billionaire’s sitting room, next to half a pickled cow? Probably not, but is monetising corpses for YouTube revenue and royalties on a photograph any more tasteful? It probably generated a couple of hundred grand if they licensed it to the front pages around the world.
I’m pretty sure Sandy Irvine wouldn’t want people to risk their lives finding the rest of him. Perhaps part of the legend is not knowing if they made it or not. If a camera or other evidence indicates a negative, that doesn’t serve Irvine or Mallory; it just enables other people to annex their greatness with a specious excuse for interfering.
I do understand what Tom is saying and the gleeful media circus around these things is horrible.
But... Am I alone in getting the shivers at the idea of my frozen body being left up a mountain for all eternity, to be gawped at by passing mountaineers? Ditto one of my family members. I would want to be brought down and buried properly (without it being recorded on the national news, of course).
I completely agree. The disappointing part is that all these people claiming global warming can’t explain why bodies or part of bodies are resurfacing. Logically you would think there was snow that melted on top of them meaning you would have to conclude that when they climbed it was warmer so today’s temperature are not uncommon.
A wonderfully written, crisply evocative analogy. We have indeed lost the ancient wisdoms which accorded a mystical respect towards Life. I continually recall C.S.Lewis's 'That Hideous Strength' when observing the headlong dive towards 'science's supremacy'. 'Evidence' must be the most abused word in common language use. You old geezers know its true meaning; subverted widely, it results in the hysterical and triumphant misuse of the visual or auditory, piecemeal fragments reminiscent of the McCarthyist clamour for 'information'.
I Couldn't agree more! However - perhaps, because we don't treat the living (especially the old) with respect, we now also don't treat the dead with respect any longer ...
Could not agree more and the dark depths of the treatment of the old in care homes is devastatingly spelled out here: https://biologyphenom.substack.com/p/newwhat-happened-in-scottish-care a collection of clips from the Scottish Covid-19 Inquiry
Oh Tom, how evocative. Are there so few of us left who recognise the indecency of this behaviour? Rhetorical question - have the editorial board no integrity - of course not. I avoid MSM like the plague. I take great comfort from reading the comments on TTE as it helps to know there are still some of us out there who know why this is so wrong.
Removing the camera, should they find it, I understand: it may resolve a mystery and makes a great story. But his foot? For the Love of God. Build a cairn, as they did with Mallory and leave a brave man in peace.
Tom, you are quite right, no consideration for the dignity of the deceased person's remains is indicative of self-centred selfish lack of respect for dignity for others.
Similar to the appalling attitude that those who used Henrietta Lack's cells for research without her consent had, something that nowadays we think of as repugnant and illegal as well as immoral.
Similar feelings for me are also evoked around for example the Titanic.
That said, isn't it wonderful that we now live in a liberal society that cares so much for itself. Just look at the good intentions behind banning mis/disinformation, lockdowns, compulsory vaccinations, school closures etc. and no doubt soon a legalised early if you want (or maybe even should have) death.
You took the words out of my mouth. Because we have no respect for the dead, we have no regard for life. I fear this legislation will be abused, as it already is in countries where it is used (Canada and Australia).
Funny that Toffeepud - two other countries with very strong connections to the WEF Young Leaders initiative. A kill-bill here, a kill-bill there….sorry please don’t misread this as Kill Bill…..nicely tidies up all those illegal murderous DNACPR’s washing around during Covid…..
I agree with almost everything you’ve said.
By all accounts, Everest is a feculent and, in some weather, fetid place. A giant open latrine to rival open defecation in suburban India, combined with countless bodies in various states and poses. Perhaps some of these grave robbers could have more usefully carried a bag of poop down instead of ski goggles.
I remember watching a video on YouTube about Mallory’s discovery, which was mostly footage of the discovery. I didn’t know who he was going into it (you don’t want me on your team at a pub quiz) but I remember being appalled that the people who discovered his remains.
They seemed to have main character syndrome. There was no doubt Mallory was up there so the delight and excitement of in the video could only have been for their own fame.
My only conflicting feeling is what the climbers would have wanted. If indeed they died after reaching the summit, would they have wanted the world to know, after such a long time, if that meant disturbing their resting place?
Usually when someone dies, up there, the family want the body. After all, many have died trying to retrieve bodies. But surely that expires at some point, especially after every living relative has died. I doubt they wanted either of them recovered one limb at a time. Finding a sock with a name woven into it is surely enough evidence without bringing the entire foot back for a DNA test.
Then what happens with it? An auction at Christie’s followed by a tawdry jar of formaldehyde in a museum or a tech billionaire’s sitting room, next to half a pickled cow? Probably not, but is monetising corpses for YouTube revenue and royalties on a photograph any more tasteful? It probably generated a couple of hundred grand if they licensed it to the front pages around the world.
I’m pretty sure Sandy Irvine wouldn’t want people to risk their lives finding the rest of him. Perhaps part of the legend is not knowing if they made it or not. If a camera or other evidence indicates a negative, that doesn’t serve Irvine or Mallory; it just enables other people to annex their greatness with a specious excuse for interfering.
I do understand what Tom is saying and the gleeful media circus around these things is horrible.
But... Am I alone in getting the shivers at the idea of my frozen body being left up a mountain for all eternity, to be gawped at by passing mountaineers? Ditto one of my family members. I would want to be brought down and buried properly (without it being recorded on the national news, of course).
I completely agree. The disappointing part is that all these people claiming global warming can’t explain why bodies or part of bodies are resurfacing. Logically you would think there was snow that melted on top of them meaning you would have to conclude that when they climbed it was warmer so today’s temperature are not uncommon.